Website Costs & Quality

[Ruairi@KRO]

Only me!

Right I am going to be very straight and honest here in the hope of getting some decent feedback.

As people may have noticed I do websites but as people may also have noticed I have really almost given up on doing SME websites unless I really get a good feeling for the customer or I already know them. I started Kro over a year ago and my ambition at the time was to provide really good quality websites at a very good price/quality ratio. I tried a number of models...

Template based design at a fixed price - didn't work as everyone wanted changes and customisations
Low cost design - didn't work as the quality became below what I was happy producing unless I operated at a loss
Medium cost design - works ok but customers are few and far between as most people want cheap websites

...so unfortunately I have fallen back onto my old and familiar stomping ground of larger companies and corporations who to be frank in my opinion got where they are by spending money wisely and paying for quality. I have not taken on an SME website in a few weeks now (although I have quoted for a very interesting site from someone on here) and I am wondering if I should turn my back on it altogether? I am having difficulty seeing a future as i am beginning to believe that SMEs in Ireland for the most part have very little vision and no willingness to invest in quality websites.

I see a few options to provide SMEs with a decent website.

1) Low cost. Alan from Omniserve has invested I would guess a fortune in this model and I personally don't believe it is possible to get a better website than he can produce for the money he asks. He has it sorted and I don't have any desire to compete.

2) Medium cost. €700 - €2500 depending. This is about what I do charge so anyone can see what I can do for that. Making a profit at this rate while still producing a quality website is tough.

3) High cost. €5000 seems to be the going rate for a static business website from some high end web design companies. For this I can provide a professional graphic designer, SEO services from a pro, ongoing maintenance, a CMS system, accessibility, browser compatibility, etc, etc, and still make money. I don't believe there is a (very big) market for this level of website.

4) Specialist - database backend, application frontend, programming, bespoke. This is what I am doing mainly and I know there is money and customers for it but they are customers who know what they want and it doesn't achieve my goal of quality websites for small companies.

5) Monthly subscriptions. I am thinking about offering e-commerce websites at a monthly subscription like a mobile phone bill. Has anyone any feedback on this?

I know a few web developers will come on here and say "I can provide brilliant websites for 20p" but lets save the argument by saying I disagree.

I just really want peoples feedback on why they value websites so little when they can bring in so much business and basically why do people start a business (especially and online business) if they have no intention of investing in the most obvious tool to make it work - the website?

On IBW there are maybe 2 people who came to me with a decent budget and wanting a decent website and I can see with my own 2 eyes that those two people are beginning to see rewards and that the investment is repaying. So why I ask are they in the minority? Why would anyone value a website at as little as paying someone for 20 hours at minimum wage?

Please debate

[agei]

Hi Ruairi,

You've hit a nerve that hits most of us - how do we charge for our work, and how do our clients value the quality of what we do?

I participated in a course facilitated by Blaise Brosnan from MRI Wexford (with kind support from Kildare County Enterprise Board), and one of the items had to do with pricing / value.

The gist of the discussion, using the airline industry as an example, used something like Ryanair at one end and BA (Concord) at the other. They are very different markets, and have very different business models.

The problem is that we (entrepeneurs / business folk) are trying to compete on price, because the client can't tell the difference in quality, especially for software or website services.

One of the pearls of wisdom is that this competition is in our heads, rather than in the open.

In trying to figure what's important, start looking at the projects you've completed over the past year (or more if you can) - and analyse each to include information (such as estimate time, estimate cost, actual time, actual cost, and total time) that will help you assess profitability. Include the cost of securing the sale (perhaps as a time estimate, or even the time from first discussion to confirmed engagement).

The look for the pattern to see which of these you can offer most efficiently, or in business terms - most profitably. The customers that these projects represent are your typical target market. More of these is what your business needs.

When going after the Ryanair model, you will need to think like Michael O'Leary - cut every cost that you can, and get loads of bums on seats. This business model only works with volume, but still needs to offer sufficient value / quality so as to allw the customer to engage.

My guess is that you will be somewhere between Ryanair and Concorde.

One last thought - it's important that you do not win every customer proposal - but also learn why not.

I hope that helps, and it has help me in my day-job, even if a slow day makes Ryanair appear like the competition..

[FCP]

It's a difficult question.
Lots of the discussion/argument (price vs quality) also apply in my own area of photography. Some people understand the differences and one person charges more than another - others just want a low price.

Specifically regarding websites, my own is based on a template, with a bit of tweaking. I'm not really happy with it, but it's OK just for the moment.
There are some really good - i.e. they look good - photographer templates available (largely Flash-based), but for a number of reasons, I have avoided going down this road.
My main reasons were (1) I wanted to avoid websites which were all flash-based (2) They're just the same as all the others.

So, I looked into getting a custom website done. However, many of the companies in the price range I think I can afford are producing distinctly mediocre sites. Definitely not worth the €2-5k they wanted.
May sites may be technically well produced, but in terms of visual appeal and ergonomics, they're awful.
(I also cannot understand why so many website designers appear to have websites 'under construction' or 'coming soon'.)
So, to get something that was significantly better than I have, and works the way I want, it looks as if I would have to spend, maybe €5-10k. That's too much for me (or is it ????).

One custom, unique site which impressed me is this :
http://www.smwphotography.co.uk/

I happen to know approximately how much this would cost - and while I wouldn't want one the same - it is different and unique.

So - where do I think the solution lies - maybe this :

(1) Some unique graphic design
(2) A selection of pre-written modules e.g. contact form, shopping cart, photo display, forum, text pages
(3) Integration of all the above elements

I think something like this could give a fairly decent site at a good price.

Incidentally - what do you think of this :

http://www.moonfruit.com/

Incidentally, for a good Irish site done on a tight budget, I really like :

http://www.curiouswines.ie/

[carole]

We started trading in Jan 09, you put your trust in people with expertise.....this has cost us 8 k this year......

I am a firm believer in pay peanuts, get monkeys, 6k of what we've paid is in cyberspace because although i loved our original site, we couldn't make changes and he had links everywhere, even to all our customers credit card details?? and paypal didn't work..essential at that time as we had an international article release. Omniserve helped us out.

Perhaps you could take a look at both our sites?

Rs,

Carole

[Ruairi@KRO]

Everyone has different tastes I know but for me that curious wines site is almost perfect (looks anyway - would take longer to technically assess it!). It is bright, colourful, "clickable", and simple. The wedding photo website is a strange beast as it is all about showcasing photos which in my opinion means making the site itself almost invisible. For my mind a good photo website has a black background and almost nothing else. My criticism of MSW photography is that the contact details are not immediately obvious and navigation involves a bit of thought. That Moonfruit site's portfolio is a mixed bag - I'd say like most template sites they can work if you choose a template well and then spend a huge amount of time getting it right.

Carole - 8k is a huge amount of money. For an SME I would expect a seriously tight website for that. Is the site offline now? I don't want to make comments on anything I don't know the details of but you know where I am if you want feedback or advice.

I guess what I am getting at in this thread is that a fairly junior professional website developer working in a web design company or a corporate can easily earn 40/50k. Translate that into a company with overheads, sales, support, etc and you are looking at about 100k per year turnover to be worth your while. Allow for 20 days holidays, 8 bank holidays, and a few sick days and that is 220 days per year at €454 per day. That means to make a website for €900 and be better off that you would be working for the IT department of Tesco or ESB or wherever you have to do it in two days and have no support issues or changes. Yet I genuinely suspect that some of my €1000 customers expect that their website will be the October project in Kro and that 24/7 support will follow until October 2010 at which point I will issue them with a €50 unlimited 24/7 support contract. Or maybe I am just too slow at making websites!!!!

I like FCPs idea - graphic design, some plug and play modules, and development and support. But again will people pay the extra €500 that a good graphic designer charges on top of what I charge for development? I have never believed my website designs were world class or even in some cases all that nice but to date I only have one customer who came to me with a design or a budget for a designer.

I'd love feedback. I have two target audience in my business - one is corporate buyers and the other is effectively IBW members and similar SME owners. I know web design and development is a big area where people have issues and concerns and questions so give me feedback here and who knows we might change the face of web development in Ireland!!! If you have specifically negative feedback about my image or services I'd be willing to take it in public but by email would be more polite of you and I would genuinely appreciate receiving it

More thought required I think!!

[FCP]

The wedding photo website is a strange beast as it is all about showcasing photos which in my opinion means making the site itself almost invisible. For my mind a good photo website has a black background and almost nothing else. My criticism of MSW photography is that the contact details are not immediately obvious and navigation involves a bit of thought.

I like FCPs idea - graphic design, some plug and play modules, and development and support. But again will people pay the extra €500 that a good graphic designer charges on top of what I charge for development? I have never believed my website designs were world class or even in some cases all that nice but to date I only have one customer who came to me with a design or a budget for a designer.

Interesting comments - unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that I can't afford (for now !) the site I'd really like. It's an expensive investment, with a lot of risk involved.

Some follow-ups on the quotes above :

For a photo website, I also like images on a black background. However, a number of things I've read lead me to believe that this is a male preference !
Women apparently prefer light or white backgrounds. I'm not sure if this is 100% true, but as a large part of my initial target market is female, that's the option I've gone with.
For the SMW site, it hugely increased his bookings as a direct result of launching the site (and excluding all other factors).

The modular site idea is I think one reason why a lot of modern sites are being built on top of Wordpress, with some added design. Much of the infrastructure is already there or can be supplied via plugins.
However, I don't think the "blogsite" suits my type of requirement. I prefer a static site + separate blog.

[Ruairi@KRO]

Well white background either I just meant no patterns or designs. I think your site looks very well.

[cbkerndter]

This is a very difficult topic and I believe there are as many approaches as there are professionals out there. First, I don't believe in pre-packaged offers as the clients and their needs just too multiple. The client often only realises during the work, that he/she wants this and that and tweak here and pimp there ... so it just doesn't work out.

I will always try to work on long term bases with a client and this cannot work, if you ask for too much. First I will asset what the client wants and what his/her business idea is, then we will make a plan of what would be needed immediately and what would be an investment to make over lets say 3-6 months. At some occasions I will also agree to spread the payment -if there is a webmaster plan involved-, work on an equity base -if I can share the vision- or on a success base -if the work is seo/marketing related-

I like to work with the http://960.gs grid system, as it gives clean designs. Most of the time I will use wordpress, as it is very handy to use even just as a CMS and there are so many plugins.

Usually I quote start-up websites for around 1800-3000€ with individual design, including 1 year hosting and basic seo/webmaster plan. So the monthly payment would be between 150€ and 250€ euro for which you get yourself set up on the internet, without any worries or hassle. If you want to rent a shop location you will pay more ...

[omniserve.ie]

Hi,

First thanks for the mention Ruairi.

Secondly I'd just like to clarify just in case its not clear that when Carole said she paid 6k it wasn't for the website we built. That was for the site she had previously. I'm sure Carole wouldn't mind telling me saying but there is a massive difference and I think Carole is very please with the price and service we provide. Well I hope she is Carole??

On the other side of things the whole area of web design, web design charges etc is likely to open a can of worms as its very subjective. Everyone has a different option as Chris rightly says. We did a lot of research before we launched Omniserve and it certainly opened my eyes from what I presumed people want from a website as to what people or their customer did actually want. A lot is also about understanding human Psychology. Yes there are people out there who want high end websites, they want something that is visually stunning or has lots of functionality and will pay for that but in reality their customers don't always want the same thing. I do stress that I'm being general here and this is not in all cases.

I could go on and on but I think less is more in this case but I'd be happy to chat to you offline about this Ruairi or anyone. (Its friday and my fingers are tired) If you really understand the market that you operate within it that all goes towards helping you.

On the ideal of the Shop Rental I think its a great idea though I do see potential issues but issues are just tasks to overcome.

Regards
Alan

[Louise C]

For Frank and those of you who like a black (or white or plain) background on a photographer's website, I just happened to come across the website of Carmel Cleary the other day and I thought I'd add this to the pot for your perusal.

http://www.gallerycmc.ie/

I like the Rooms and doors into the next page as if you were in a gallery!

[cbkerndter]

On the ideal of the Shop Rental I think its a great idea though I do see potential issues but issues are just tasks to overcome.

Just to clarify, I did not mean Online Shop, I meant a analog offline real-life shop on highstreet or whereever

[omniserve.ie]

Hi Chris

Sorry the Shop Rental part was meant for Ruairi and his question about offering ecommerce sites on a monthly rental.

Alan

[weerosie]

I just really want peoples feedback on why they value websites so little when they can bring in so much business and basically why do people start a business (especially and online business) if they have no intention of investing in the most obvious tool to make it work - the website?

Hi Ruairi

I am going to own up that I at first didnt realise the importance of websites... yes I love it when i see great website as a consumer browsing the internet but it is only when i go online to purchase/research things that I realise that quality can make a massive impact on whether I give up trying to find something on a website or I am easily lead to each stage.

My first website was based on a template you can download, a friend of a friend (you live and learn) did this for me and then I have done the rest since and it's been a learn as you go along. Now I'm getting a new website done (I won a competition) and I have to say, it is only when I see drafts of my new website that I see the difference - quality, professional looking, clean lines, format easily read, congruency on style, easy to follow, matches my taste - my website actually represents me rather than being solely used for information purpose.

People have always commented on my 2 template websites saying that they love them (content and website template) and I was aprehensive of changing to a new style but I realised my website is my presence on cyberspace as they don't get to meet me until later but my website screams 'me' (I know about videos etc but I think I'm doing well getting a website going first!)

Yet, I also know that money was the main reason I didnt bother initally getting someone to do them 'right' the 1st time - I just didnt know what was good price, what to expect, what was really involved in designing websites, how long does it take, what was the norm, who is good and who isn't (designer), would I be taken for a fool as I knew nothing about websites, what is really meant to have a good website, the difference a good website could make and no one I knew could point me in any direction...

I fell in love with the wedding photographers website - nothing to do with white or black background - the images and then his own photgraphy had me sucked in within a minute (i guess maybe I'm saying he managed to convene an atmosphere)..

Also just wondering what do you think of those websites which are real americanised i.e. they have all the writting and highlighted yellow bits trying to sell (i can't think of one at the minute) but they drive me mad!!

Dont know if that makes sense but just thought i'd throw my 2p in

[cbkerndter]

the Shop Rental part was meant for Ruairi

No Problem!

[CCoffey]

Hi Everyone

I am up and running for around 3 weeks now. I commissioned a web site which I am very happy with in that I got exactly what I asked for - clean, bright, professional - a very corporate feel. I was happy with the price at a mid range. I could not praise the designer enough in relation to courtesy.

Now here's the problem - I am pitching a product that would save a typical office environment time and money. Perhaps I should have gone down the line of "Go Harvey Go". Perhaps I did not call it right. It is too early to tell. Any feedback on http://www.procure.ie much appreciated.

Just because what you are selling is discounted does not mean of cource that it would cost any less to develop the site.

How would you decide what level of cost is appropriate for the business you have been asked to design for - is that part of your service? How do you guage what the expected level of return is on a more expensive site. We all want the sun moon and stars but a start up has to count every penny.

Your comments are appreciated.

All the best

Carmel